MIKE O’LOUGHLIN, HOST: Now Federal Labor’s Shadow Minister Assisting for Climate Change and Shadow Minister Assisting for Defence, Pat Conroy is in Tassie at the moment. We last spoke with Pat back in November you might remember when he was at the COP26 United Nations climate change conference in Glasgow. So we will find out what he’s up to in Tassie and with the federal election looming of course, they’re visiting Tasmania. Pat good morning, thanks for your time, and welcome back to Tasmania.
PAT CONROY, SHADOW MINISTER ASSISTING FOR CLIMATE CHANGE: Thanks Mike, it’s always a pleasure to be here.
O’LOUGHLIN: So you arrived in Tassie yesterday. Tell us about your visit to the Australian Maritime College.
CONROY: Yes, so I visited with Ross Hart, Labor’s candidate for Bass and we visited the Australian Maritime College to look at their plans for upgrading their facilities. This really is a national jewel that we’ve got in Launceston that does really great research and problem solving for our Navy, and quite frankly we are going to need them to be working very hard over the next decade or two given the challenges we’ve got with shipbuilding at the moment in this country. So it’s very exciting to see what the cutting-edge research is that they’re doing around cavitations, so that’s what will make propellors as quiet as possible and their towing basin to see how ships can perform as well as possible.
O’LOUGHLIN: Well as long as they’re not changing the contract for submarines down the track, that’s probably good news.
CONROY: Ah –
O’LOUGHLIN: Sorry.
CONROY: No, I was just saying absolutely. We’ve got a major problem with our frigates at the moment where they’re too noisy to hunt the submarines -
O’LOUGHLIN: Yeah.
CONROY: - that we need them to do, so the Maritime College is going to be instrumental in helping solve those problems.
O’LOUGHLIN: Oh good news. Listen Pat, defence is obviously a hot topic at the moment with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. What’s your take on the situation over there? Because obviously after Biden’s State of the Union address, it all, there’s sort of a lot of shouting and a lot of saying ‘we will’, but is it really hurting? Or has Putin just gone nuts?
CONROY: Well Labor and I condemn the unprovoked aggression of Vladimir Putin and Russia invading a neighbouring country. It’s completely unacceptable and it’s hurting the world order. The response from our allies and partners around sanctions I think will bite and hopefully will force Mr Putin to reconsider this move. And we support all of the sanctions that have been imposed and we’ve called for Australia to impose as much sanctions as possible because we need Mr Putin to rethink this horrible course of action.
O’LOUGHLIN: And indeed, when you think that eventually, realistically, he’s going to have to answer to war crimes I think Putin. I mean, you look at the, I know the International Criminal Court is investigating the Russian President’s possible war crimes. Like when I was reading the deployment by Russian forces of deadly cluster munitions and even more devastating vacuum bombs they call it – these are the ones that suck oxygen out of the air before exploding – absolutely unforgiveable. Now Russia has used them to target hospitals, apartment blocks, kindergartens, and orphanages. I mean, surely someone’s going to step in soon and help Ukraine out? This is just quite ridiculous. I mean, help them out with boots on the ground surely?
CONROY: Well that’s obviously something that would escalate the conflict quite significantly and I know NATO and Europe is considering their options very carefully. But I will say that the blood of every dead and injured Ukrainian, whether it’s a soldier, a man, a woman, or heaven forbid a child, the blood of all of those victims is on Mr Putin’s hands. This is a completely unprovoked act of aggression, and every nation should be calling it out for what it is.
O’LOUGHLIN: And how do you feel about the Morrison Government’s response so far?
CONROY: Oh we support it. We think it’s very important that we present a united front so that the Government of Russia know that whoever is in power in Australia, they can expect the strongest possible sanctions. We’ve said we will support any sanctions that the Morrison Government puts on Russia and we’ve asked questions about how we can maximise them. We have supported the provision of lethal aid i.e. providing weapons to Ukraine, and non-lethal aid. It’s very important that at this point we have bipartisanship on this important issue, and we are ready to support the Government in any way we can.
O’LOUGHLIN: Well it’s obviously, you know, Chinese President Xi Jinping’s the only one they’re saying now, the only one who could stop Russia from what’s unfolding in Ukraine which I think is interesting. And that’s according to Defence Minister Peter Dutton, you’ve probably heard him say that. But pledging that $105 million for lethal and non-lethal aid to help Ukrainian forces and NATO allies fight back that, well that Russian invasion that you’ve said is just bloody disgraceful. But we’ve condemned Putin, what are we doing with China? This is something that people are so, so terrified of is treading on toes.
CONROY: Well what we’ve said is China states that it has a unique relationship, a special relationship with Russia, and we are urging China, President Xi Jinping to use that special relationship to get Vladimir Putin to pull back. China has been steadfast in saying that it respects the sovereignty and territorial integrity of every nation around the world. Well their statements so far around the Ukrainian invasion so far are completely inconsistent with that. So we are calling on them to actually apply a level of consistency and condemn the invasion and call for Vladimir Putin to pull back. They have a unique relationship with Russia and they should be using that to maintain global peace. They are one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. They are a global power. They should be using that influence for good rather than sitting on the sidelines while this invasion occurs.
O’LOUGHLIN: Pat, you have to agree that Ukraine has not only united what was an already really disintegrating Europe, but it’s really fused a transatlantic partnership. I mean it’s going to change the balance of world economic power. Because until Ukraine, you’d have to agree with that, it was three powers who dominated – the US, China, and Europe, and China was set to become the most powerful – but now of course, they’ve realised or Putin has realised that ‘well hang on, it’s not splintering Europe at all, it’s got them all together’. Now Europe and the US are establishing an era of joint development and cooperation. I mean they’re kicking Russia and China as well, and even you’ve got Peter Dutton you’d be aware and Scott Morrison and Marise Payne, they probably wouldn’t have dreamt that the Quad alliance between India, Japan, Australia, and the US, plus AUKUS nuclear submarine base. I mean no one, I mean I wouldn’t have thought, I mean all of this is happening now, no one would have thought this would occur and it’s strengthening. But how do you feel about that? I mean, are we, is it for the betterment of Australia overall?
CONROY: Well anything that destablises the peace and stability around the globe impacts us negatively, so we should be very clear about that. But you are absolutely right that I think that Mr Putin was counting on a fractured and fragmented Europe with the United States on the sidelines, whereas his acts of aggression and provocation have united Europe and have united with the United States. President Biden has sort of operated consistently bringing the European allies together, and when nations as diverse as Sweden are providing military assistance to Ukraine, when nations that are traditionally as neutral as Switzerland –
O’LOUGHLIN: Yeah.
CONROY: - are participating in the sanctions and the freezing of assets of Russian oligarchs, that is a tremendous achievement. So I think that Putin’s actions besides being completely horrible have actually had the unintended positive impact of uniting Europe and the United States. So I think you’re right. It’s a very interesting time around the world.
O’LOUGHLIN: It is. I’m speaking with Pat Conroy, Shadow Minister Assisting for Climate Change and Shadow Minister Assisting for Defence etc. And Pat, Russia realistically is likely to eventually win the war in Ukraine, but the inevitable Russian recession and even depression – I honestly believe that will occur – will continue until, what, Putin would have to be removed as President and then the country would have to withdraw from Ukraine with an apology and reparations, and then China will suddenly realise it’s stuck and they’re in a trap.
CONROY: Well I probably won’t want to engage in some of those hypotheticals, but what I can say is that the sanctions are already biting in Russia. You’re seeing western companies pull out where they can. You’re seeing interest rates and inflation skyrocketing in Russia. And Labor’s position is we need to ratchet up these sanctions as far as possible to hurt Putin, to hurt the billionaire cronies who have kept him in power, and ultimately to hurt the Russian economy so that they pull back. This is, I think you have to meet force with economic force quite frankly.
O’LOUGHLIN: Yeah, look I agree. With all of this going on, do you think Australia’s defence capabilities are really where they need to be?
CONROY: I think that we have huge issues with our defence capabilities, our weapons buying system under this Government. We’ve got 25 major defence projects which are cumulatively running almost 70 years late. We’ve got our frigates that have blown out from $30 billion to $45 billion that are running four years late where the captains of the frigates it’s been revealed will either have a choice between going at full speed or using their radars in a high conflict zone. And they’re also too noisy to operate effectively as submarine hunters. We’ve got battlefield airlifter aircraft that can’t fly into battlefields. We’ve got the $16 billion Joint Strike Fighter that is flying thousands of hours less than has been planned because they can’t get maintenance right.
So it is really concerning because this is the frontline for the ADF and our troops deserve and need the equipment, and they’re not getting it. And unfortunately we’ve had six Coalition Defence Ministers in eight years, and that just means we don’t get that continuity. Like, goldfish have longer life expectancies than Coalition Defence Ministers, and that means that we aren’t getting the proper administration of defence.
O’LOUGHLIN: (laughs) You’ve just painted an interesting picture Pat. Tell me, are you concerned about all of the impacts this might have on Australia?
CONROY: Anything that destabilises international peace and stability hurts Australia. We are the beneficiary of the post-World War II international system. We’ve had, except for a few periods of interruption, decades long peace and stability which has allowed us to grow our economy, to raise our families, to export, and anything that destabilises that hurts Australia. And that’s why it’s really important that we work with our allies and partners to reverse this course of action.
So I am worried about what it means for Australia. Ukraine is a long way away, but it signals to other actors that they can invade and violate the territorial integrity of other sovereign nations which is very worrying.
O’LOUGHLIN: Well you look at Australian trade officials. They’re in discussions with local coal producers too. I mean the Federal Government are coordinating efforts to find supply for Poland and Asian trading partners with a bit of a scramble to replace Russian resources. So obviously right now it’s affecting us in our trade, in our exports, and our imports massively.
CONROY: Absolutely. It’s a hugely disruptive moment in global history, and we need to act sensibly and rationally and calmly and present a united front. So far I am really pleased that all sides of politics have acted in a very bipartisan way, and the Australian public quite frankly should expect nothing less than that.
O’LOUGHLIN: Let’s go a little more local. Today you’re meeting with the George Town Chamber of Commerce, tell me about that.
CONROY: Yes, so I am travelling with Ross Hart to meet with the George Town Chamber of Commerce to talk about the huge job opportunities in northern Tasmania that will come out of Labor’s climate policy. So when we talked last time, we had a really good chat about the future of battery manufacturing, of hydrogen, of electric vehicles. Since then we have released our climate policy which will cut power prices by $275 a year and grow 600,000 jobs including 500,000 jobs in regional areas such as northern Tasmania. So we will be sitting down with the George Town Chamber of Commerce to talk about the opportunities, and they’re massive.
I am incredibly passionate about the opportunity for hydrogen in Australia, for us to produce hydrogen, to make clean hydrogen, to make the electrolysers that produce the hydrogen, and to export that around the world. And I can’t think of anywhere better placed to do that than northern Tasmania with your great renewable energy, your strong tradition of manufacturing, and your export orientations. So it’s going to be a really exciting conversation.
O’LOUGHLIN: Pat, do you support the Federal Government’s plan for a potential hydrogen hub at Bell Bay?
CONROY: I think it’s a no-brainer. I think we need to actually ramp it up. Labor has announced that we will have $3 billion worth of funding for initiatives around hydrogen, light metal manufacturing around aluminium, around making the inputs into renewable energy. And so I think the potential for a hydrogen hub at Bell Bay is great. I think we need to be moving faster and we need to be throwing more resources at it because we are in a global race to supply that. Places like South Korea and Japan want to shift to a hydrogen-based economy. They can’t produce the hydrogen locally because they don’t have the resources for it, so we are competing against places like Qatar to fill that demand, and we need to be moving faster. And the hydrogen hub at Bell Bay makes complete sense and that’s why Labor’s put aside $3 billion to help grow projects like that.
O’LOUGHLIN: We need to probably push a little harder I think, possibly even with the State Government Pat which I know is probably something that’s difficult for you to do, because Fortescue Future Industries, FFI, they’ve previously announced the plan as we have spoken on this program before to construct a facility on land leased from TasPorts in the Bell Bay industrial precinct there, with a possibility the plant could be one of the plants largest if commissioned. Now they’re still in discussions with the State Government after a key deadline was missed, so if we want to get on board with that in a hurry, it doesn’t look like any time soon.
CONROY: There needs to get a rush on because not only is there international competition, there’s huge competition between the States. So the South Australia Labor Party – obviously they’re in an election at the moment – made a big announcement about Port Pirie as a hydrogen hub. I know that the NSW Government, so obviously not my side of politics, but they’re doing lots on hydrogen, and they’re keen for my home region of Newcastle and the Hunter to be a hydrogen hub.
So Tasmania is competing against other States. We’ll have more than one. I think it makes complete sense for there to be hydrogen hubs at Bell Bay, Newcastle, and Gladstone in Queensland. But State Governments, clearly the ones that move the fastest and are prepared to throw the most resources will be in the driving position, and the strong skills and expertise and history at Bell Bay means that Tasmania should be moving fast to grab these jobs. And as I said, under Labor we think we can grow 600,000 jobs in these industries, and I want northern Tasmania to get more than its fair share of that.
O’LOUGHLIN: Yeah. Look certainly it would be such a benefit for Tasmania to get that green hydrogen moving as soon as possible at Bell Bay. Let’s move to another space. You live in Lake Macquarie which for our listeners who may not know is in the Newcastle region. What are things like there flood wise? I believe the low that is causing what they’re calling flood bombs etc. is now sitting just off Newcastle.
CONROY: Yeah, it’s sitting off our coast. Through some sort of I think weird part of it, we’re not getting hit as hard as people a bit south of us towards the Central Coast and Sydney. So we’re bracing for floods, but it’s really hit obviously the north coast around Lismore dreadfully hard, and over 100mm has hit Sydney over the last 24 hours. I was just getting a briefing from the Bureau of Meteorology and I’ve seen that we’ve now got evacuation orders or warnings covering 500,000 people in New South Wales, so that’s obviously equivalent to the entire population of Tasmania either being ordered to evacuate or being warned that they may need to evacuate.
So this east coast low is doing tremendous damage. We’ve obviously had lives tragically lost in Lismore. A friend of mine is Janelle Saffin, the State Member for Lismore, and she had to swim for her life. Her house she was sleeping in was flooded in the middle of the night and she had to swim out of it and escape. So this is horrible. And obviously the contrast with the fact that I was reading that Tasmania has had one of its driest suburbs on record is quite remarkable.
O’LOUGHLIN: It’s interesting because Tasmania has this morning sent support personnel to New South Wales to assist with the devastating floods. At 6am they deployed a State Emergency Service flood engineer from our flood policy unit to Wollongong to work within the incident control centre to assist, and there’s further support personnel that will be sent. So a total of four Tasmanian SES staff are being deployed to assist New South Wales. Because when I looked at that, you know, 31 locations across the State which you’ve touched on with evacuation orders, and of course they’re now moving to metropolitan Sydney which is unheard of.
CONROY: It’s incredible, and while we should be very careful about saying this specific incident is caused by climate change, sadly a new International Panel on Climate Change report came out this week which has warned Australia that we are really exposed. With all of the bushfires that have affected many, many places in Australia including Tasmania a few years ago, all of these extreme weather events, they’re going to occur more often and they’re going to be more severe, and this is what’s happening because of climate change.
So sadly, we will be calling on the assistance of the Tasmanian people and officials more and more, and I suspect that quite sadly for New South Wales to be sending SES and police and fire persons down to Tasmania as well more and more. So it’s unfortunately a sign of more things to come.
O’LOUGHLIN: What is also something that is just disgraceful is the looting. I couldn’t believe it when I read that and you must be the same Pat. I mean it’s flood-stricken Brisbane residents, police are on alert in there in Brisbane because they’re calling them grubs – we’d call them a lot worse than that – and they’ve even called one bloke who possibly could get 10 years jail who was arrested and charged with burglary. Three cases of alleged looting in Goodna and Blackstone and Bundamba, two businesses and one home. These are, I mean no one thinks of that do they? It’s just ridiculous how you’ve got this incredible emergency situation happening, flooding, you know, the Mud Army helping out, and then you’ve got these grubs. I can’t believe it.
CONROY: Oh it’s a disgrace, and the [inaudible] I can call these people is scum. They are exploiting the misery of fellow human beings for petty material advantage, and unfortunately at this time we see the best and worst of our fellow people. So just as I am horrified by this, I was overjoyed by watching a group of Fijian abattoir workers helping evacuate aged care homes in Lismore. Unfortunately these crises bring out the best and worst. I condemn any sort of these criminal activities, this looting and exploiting of people under huge vulnerabilities is just the lowest of the low.
O’LOUGHLIN: And I think flood affected regions, are they getting enough support from the Morrison Government do you think?
CONROY: The Morrison Government is saying the right things so that’s a start, but I am worried. So for example, they’ve got a massive $4.5 billion emergency relief fund that they’ve not spent a single cent of. This fund was established to provide emergency relief to people post the bushfires and to invest in projects that increase resilience, and it’s got $4.5 billion and it hasn’t spent a single cent. It’s accumulated $800 million in interest since it was established, so at the moment it’s just propping up the Government’s bottom line rather than being spent on these really important projects.
So when I talk to people, they just scratch their head. If you’ve got an Emergency Response Fund, well we are in an emergency now, so why isn’t that money being deployed to help people? And I think that is very disappointing by the Morrison Government, and they’ve also started setting up special Centrelink offices to assist people in Brisbane and I was only reading online that unfortunately the vast majority of them have gone into Liberal electorates rather than them just being spread around based on need.
So I don’t think the Australian people would like either of that. They want the Government to be there when they need it, and they want it to be using money allocated for emergency response to respond to the current emergency we are in.
O’LOUGHLIN: And Pat, tell me. I am tipping May 14, so have a couple of other people for the federal election. What’s your tip?
CONROY: May 14 as well. The three most likely dates are the 7th, the 14th, and the 21st, so I think it will be the 14th which is around 71 or 72 days away from now. For purely selfish reasons I hope it’s not the 21st because that’s my daughter ninth birthday.
O’LOUGHLIN: Right.
CONROY: But I think the 14th is the most likely because that will give the Prime Minister a week after the Budget to spruik the Budget and then go to the Governor-General.
O’LOUGHLIN: Well so for you Pat, where to from here?
CONROY: So as I said, I am travelling with Ross Hart to George Town to have a chat with the Chamber of Commerce about hydrogen, and then tonight I fly home and do a bit of work in my electorate before getting ready for the Budget sittings in Canberra which will happen in a couple of weeks’ time. But I’ll definitely be back in Launceston soon. I love the place.
O’LOUGHLIN: Good on you Pat. Good to talk to you. Pat Conroy, Shadow Minister Assisting for Climate Change, Shadow Minister Assisting for Defence as well. Pat, enjoy Tassie!
CONROY: Thanks Mike, always happy to have a chat. Bye bye.