E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW ABC NEWS WEEKEND BREAKFAST WITH ANDREW GEOGHEGAN
AND JOHANNA NICHOLSON
SATURDAY, 14 APRIL 2018
SUBJECT: Immigration and Energy
ANDREW GEOGHEGAN, PRESENTER: This week Australia's immigration policy was back in the spotlight. Home affairs minister, Peter Dutton says he supports the current permanent migration intake of 190,000 people.
JOHANNA NICHOLSON, PRESENTER: But he say it should be reviewed regularly and Tony Abbott has suggested cutting the number substantially to deal with issues like congestion and house prices. For more on this and other topics, we are talking now with Labor MP Pat Conroy from Newcastle and Liberal MP Craig Kelly. Thanks both for your time.
CRAIG KELLY: Great to be with you.
NICHOLSON: Craig, are all ministers in the Coalition cabinet united when it comes to immigration?
KELLY: Oh look I can't speak for the ministers individually in the Cabinet, but look, it's correct we should be having a debate about the immigration rules in this country. The traffic problems that we are having in Sydney, the over congestion on our public transport, the additional money we need to spend on infrastructure to try and get roads up - we need to make sure that whatever levels our immigration are at the federal level, that's coordinated with the state governments and with the local governments.
GEOGHEGAN: Are you speaking from personal experience? You just said...You were late into the studio this morning because of traffic congestion, you said you struggled to get through the Sydney roads. Is this not though, more down more to poor planning?
KELLY: This is where the planning needs to be coordinated. Now it's very difficult to plan if we've got like 200 plus thousand people coming into the country every year and most of those people have been settling in Sydney also and Melbourne. Now, if we could somehow work out to get more people settling in our regional areas, perhaps we could even increase the rates of immigration in the country. So, it's very important that we are talking about this issue and we are talking about it on the basis of planning so there is that coordination between the Federal Government, State governments and local councils.
NICHOLSON: Pat, do you think our immigration levels should be adjusted at all?
PAT CONROY: I don't, quite frankly. What we need is greater planning and greater infrastructure investment. One thing I agree with Craig is we need more investment in infrastructure and it is a pity that his government cut their planned spending on infrastructure last year by over a billion dollars. So that's the real solution. I do agree that we need to encourage more migrants into regional areas such as mine where we need more growth and we need better planning, but this cabinet debate has been a farce. We had the Prime Minister saying it wasn't discussed. We had the Immigration Minister say well it was discussed with leaks to competing journalists. This whole thing was shambolic and symbolic of a government that is degenerating before our very eyes.
GEOGHEGAN: Craig, we've also seen during the week some sort of adjustment in the levels, Peter Dutton, essentially what he has done is there are some 44,000 places in the skilled independent visa program. Now New Zealanders are a part of that. Is that a bit of a devious way of adjusting those levels as far as immigration from other countries are concerned?
KELLY: Not really. Not only is the overall number important as well, but also the visa categories within that particular number. Now, we know under the Labor Party, under Kevin Rudd, that number got as high at 300,000. You know, that was far too high for the planning that we had, so it's very easy for Pat here to slag off that the governments, state governments and Liberal governments not doing enough. We had 300,000 in that year from Kevin Rudd; of course we're going get ourselves into trouble with not having enough housing starts in the nation. Now, It is also important that we have got our mix of skilled visa, humanitarian visa, all different types of categories that we have now, that mix right as well within the overall quantity.
GEOGHEGAN: But does this not amount to a real cut in skilled visa program because we're talking about 10,000 Kiwis who are already in this country?
KELLY: We did the Kiwis got a bit of an open-ended go and I think it's correct that if we are actually planning correctly, we've got to make sure we put the Kiwis in that category as well so we still have full control of the numbers.
NICHOLSON: Craig, Pat also mentioned communication within the Government. Was there discussion between Peter Dutton and senior colleagues in terms of changes.
KELLY: Look, they're things you will have to ask Peter Dutton. Well I've had discussions with Peter Dutton myself and I've suggested, "Peter you've got to have a look at the migration numbers in this country because I can tell you from practical experience, in Western Sydney and the outer Sydney suburbs, they are really struggling with the pressures of the high rates of migration that we are having at the moment".
NICHOLSON: Pat, what did you make to the change in the skilled independent visa program?
CONROY: Well I thought that was very sneaky, it was also very sneaky of Mr Dutton to change the 190,000 migration target to a ceiling without telling anyone. That was very sneaky. Let's be very clear, migration overwhelmingly is economically beneficial for this country, both in bringing skilled people to this country to contribute to the economy and reducing the average age of our population. We've got an ageing population. We need younger people coming in to support all the retirees. So, overwhelmingly it's good, by sneakily cutting migration without having a full-throated debate, this Government is just, I think, selling us short.
NICHOLSON: When you say it was sneaky, do you think though, he is actually reflecting the majority opinion of Australians, perhaps, who are worried about the level of immigration we have at the moment?
CONROY: Well, let's have a proper debate about it, rather than just changing, tweaking a word when Peter Dutton became a minister from "target" to "ceiling around 190,000". I'm convinced that the majority of Australians understand that immigration, overwhelmingly is a good thing for this country, if we do the planning right, if we get the infrastructure investment right, if we get the policies to encourage people to settle in places such as regional New South Wales and cities other than Sydney and Melbourne, but we've got to do that properly instead of just throwing out this, sort of red flag to the extreme right of politics where Peter Dutton is clearly courting those conservative votes in his party room. That's degenerating this debate and cheapening it and it is really unfortunate.
GEOGHEGAN: Craig, another big issue this week has of course has been energy. Do you think the Government will get the support of State and Territory Ministers for the National Energy Guarantee?
KELLY: Well I would I hope so. We've heard the ACT Government who actually has a right of veto for the plans for the National energy guarantee, so the ACT, about 1% of the nation's energy, can actually say, "No, we don't like it," and the whole thing falls over. But what we also need with this, we need the Labor Party, Bill Shorten, and also Mr Conroy, the member for - the energy Minister - we need them to make very specifically clear that if we put this National Energy Guarantee in place, that they will not change the parameters; they will not the change the settings going forward. That is what will give us the certainty that we need.
NICHOLSON: Craig, you are a member of the Monash forum. What are you seeking to influence as far as the energy debate?
KELLY: It's very important that we have some kind of counter-balance from the avalanche or tidal wave of anything kind of rhetoric we are seeing in all sections of media. Many people are out there demonising coal. Coal has been the backbone for this nation for many, many fear years and it will continue to be so in the future.
NICHOLSON: Let's get some clarity here as far as your point of view and the Monash forum concerning it. Do you want new coal power stations built?
KELLY: Well it's very clear, as our coal-fired power stations are closing down and ageing, which they are, we've got Liddell coming up in 2022, and these things take 5 years to plan from start to finish, we need to look at what the rest of the world is doing and they are building hundreds of coal-fired power stations. Now, the idea that we can rid of our base load power and replace it with large batteries and wind turbines and solar panels really is a complete and utter folly. Yes, you can do it technically, but at what cost? If we want to get low electricity prices in this nation, we've got to replace those ageing coal-fired power stations with new modern coal-fired power stations, the latest technology that can deliver power into the grid, between $50 and $60 megawatts an hour.
GEOGHEGAN: Pat, do you support the National Energy Guarantee?
CONROY: Well, we've yet to see the full details. We keep seeing dribs and drabs being dribbled out. We've said that we need a bipartisan settlement on energy policy and we will look at the NEG when the details fully emerge and if it gets through COAG. Let's be very clear, though, if we agree to an NEG we will ramp up the ambition of the target for emission reductions upon winning government to at least 45% cut TO greenhouse gas emissions by 2030.
CONROY: All the energy generators that appeared before the energy Committee that both Craig and I sit on have said that that doesn't matter, that they are very comfortable having two targets of 45% with Labor, 26% with Liberals, as long as all the other rules are set and the notice periods are appropriate. That is the hard evidence of those energy companies before our committee. They will invest as long as the only parameter that varies is the possible target. That is the truth of the matter. Secondly on coal, Craig is living in a fantasy land as is the Monash forum in terms of the cost. The cheapest and most reliable form of new power generation is a combination of renewables, backed up by gas-fired power or pumped hydro and batteries coming in. That is the testimony of the Australian Energy Market Operator, that is the evidence from the Bloomberg New Energy Finance report, the entire private sector believes that. The cost of a new coal-fired power station in this country will not be $50 or $60 a megawatt hour, it will be closer to $130 a megawatt hour. So what Craig is advocating for is higher power prices and increasing greenhouse gas emissions in this country, it would be a disaster and it shows that the Monash forum and the Coalition party room is woefully out of touch with reality.
KELLY: Firstly I have to have a response on a couple of these points. Firstly what Pat said is very disturbing. If we have a National Energy Guarantee and Labor want to come in later and their policy is to change all the settings, that gets rid of the certainty. This is a very disturbing comment that Pat's made this morning. That Labor wants to change it. If we have a National Energy Guarantee and we get every state to sign on, and Labor want to change it, certainty goes out the window. Secondly, the idea, around the world we have several hundred coal-fired power stations being constructed around the world. They are coming on, able to produce electricity between $50 and $60 a megawatts hour. Now the idea that it's going to cost $120 in Australia; this is a dangerous folly that will put electricity prices up. You know the cost of batteries per megawatt hour is power is $500-plus.
NICHOLSON: Sorry, just quickly, Pat.
CONROY: Craig, you are factually wrong on the cost of coal and on the NEG.
KELLY: Well, let's get rid of the subsidies.
CONROY: Quite frankly, the Energy Security Board your own minister, Josh Frydenberg, have emphasised that the ambition under the NEG can be ramped up.
NICHOLSON: We are running out of time. Let's quickly move onto the issue of leadership. Obviously at the beginning of the week, Craig, we saw the Government led by Malcolm Turnbull lose the 30th Newspoll in a row. At what point do you say, "That's enough, we need to change leader if you continue losing." ?
KELLY: Well Mr Turnbull has said and made very clear that it was a mistake for him to say that. We have to admit it. It's done and gone and he shouldn't have said it in the past It's not how many you lose, it's how close you are. Now with 48 or 50, depending on how you allocate the preferences, if you allocate the preferences, the Fairfax polls show, it's about 50/50, so we are very close, within striking distance and the closer we get to the election, the more we emphasise the difference in policy, between what the Labor Party offers and what the Coalition offers, those numbers will get tighter and tighter as we go.
NICHOLSON: Unequivocally, can you say Malcolm Turnbull will lead you to the next election, without question?
KELLY: The choice is Malcolm Turnbull or Bill Shorten. That is the choice that the Australian public will have in less than 12 months time.
GEOGHEGAN: Pat, are these polls reflecting more of a disappointment with Malcolm Turnbull's leadership rather than a will of the people to vote in Bill Shorten as Prime Minister? Does Labor need to do more to sell Bill Shorten?
CONROY: Well, I think the polls reflect both; A willingness to embrace a new vision for the country and a great dissatisfaction with Mr Turnbull's leadership. Mr Turnbull set four tests for himself when he overthrew Mr Abbott. One was polls - well, he has lost 30 Newspolls in a row. The second was no three-word slogans, but we hear “jobs and growth” and “electricity Bill” ad nauseum, third was a good cabinet government and we saw this week around the immigration debacle where he and the Immigration Minister couldn't agree on what was discussed at cabinet and fourth around the economy where we have got the highest underemployment in recorded history, we've got stagnant wage growth and the main driver of the jobs growth in the economy has been the NDIS, set up by Labor, and infrastructure investment at a state level. So on all four counts - Mr Turnbull has failed the Australian people and quite frankly he is a political carcass swinging in the wind.
GEOGHEGAN: Pat Conroy, Craig Kelly.
NICHOLSON: Strong words. Wow.
KELLY: 400,000 new jobs. Pat, you continue to knock it. Record job growth and we hear nonsense like that, what can you expect.
CONROY: We created it and the State Governments did.
GEOGHEGAN: Alright, we know you two can go on. That's why we separated you. You are in the studio, Pat you're in Newcastle, thanks very much for joining us.
ENDS -